AusBonsai

ozzy wrote:

Yes I've often wondered what the cut off age should be for growing bonsai from seed

There is no cut off age. Grow until you kick the bucket. Someone else will take over your work. I probably won't see the best of many of my trees.

Isn't the only way to ensure there is good stock in the future is to grow from seed now and as treeman says, pass it on to others to work on further. Even if it takes 20 years to grow a good stock tree for a larger bonsai that would make me only 60. Still young enough to lift it, even if help is needed. And hopefully better stock out there to develop further.

As for me, I'll be propagating a lot of natives from seed, including Leptospermum's, Eucalyptus, Melaleuca and various others. Also air layering various Calistemons and cuttings of figs that show good characteristics.

Without being cynical.

I am growing whatever comes up in the garden.
There is a heap of Pyrus, Fraxinus, Acer and Syzigium.

Not to mention what is ground layering.

Happy propagating

Until Shibui had his mega seed sale I was of the opinion of why would I bother growing from seed when someone else has already done the hard work.

Now that I'm growing some, I love it when they pop out of the soil! Two of them are going gangbusters.

I agree with Jarrad. I wasn't that interested until I got some 1 year old maple seedlings (not quite seeds but close enough in my eyes). now I've got some wired early, some in the ground and trying new things with them all. Some will fail terribly - some may look different, but I'll learn and more on. But the one or two that I still have in 30 years will be the pride of my collection.

Great thread. I'm inspired!! [THUMBS UP SIGN]

Here's a pot of seedlings of Acer palmatum ''Akaji Nishiki'' It has pinkish orange new leaves. You can see the genetic variability here. The yellow seedlings will have the coloured spring growth. The green ones won't. Another pot had almost all green seedlings!

That genetic variability is why those are NOT seedlings of Acer palmatum ''Akaji Nishiki'' They may be seedlings from Acer palmatum ''Akaji Nishiki'' but there was only ever one seedling that became Acer palmatum ''Akaji Nishiki''. Even seedlings that look like the parent cannot be given the parent name because they have different combinations of genes and are therefore different and need new varietal names.

I love it when people grow seedlings but please, please, please don't give them the parent name. It causes all sorts of problems later on when we have several strains that are almost, but not quite the same but have the same names.

shibui wrote:That genetic variability is why those are NOT seedlings of Acer palmatum ''Akaji Nishiki'' They may be seedlings from Acer palmatum ''Akaji Nishiki'' but there was only ever one seedling that became Acer palmatum ''Akaji Nishiki''. Even seedlings that look like the parent cannot be given the parent name because they have different combinations of genes and are therefore different and need new varietal names.

I love it when people grow seedlings but please, please, please don't give them the parent name. It causes all sorts of problems later on when we have several strains that are almost, but not quite the same but have the same names.

All very true Shibui. I meant to say ''from'' I NEVER give a seedling from a cultivar the parents name. My lables say from.. blah blah......If anything!

You have been doing this for long enough so I knew you would be aware Treeman.

Just pointing out to those newer to propagation the protocols and pitfalls.
I have tried to explain this many times but a lot of growers just can't get it.

shibui wrote:You have been doing this for long enough so I knew you would be aware Treeman.

Just pointing out to those newer to propagation the protocols and pitfalls.
I have tried to explain this many times but a lot of growers just can't get it.

So does this relate to all trees or just specifically Acers?

I only have a Chinese Elm bonsai and prebonsai Shimpaku, a few banksia serrata and some advanced swamp cypress prebonsai so far. I have been concentrating on familiarising myself with propagation of stock. I have tried to be selective limiting myself to plants that are known bonsai species but also worthy natives with useful attributes. I collected some but mostly chased up the seed on Ebay for Nyssa, Colorado Spruce, American Larch, Swamp Cypress, Atlas Cedar, Deodar Cedar, Japanese Maple (+ Australiana), Trident Maple and Podocarpus maki. As far as natives go I have Casuarina torulosa, Port Jackson Pine, Pygmy Cypress, Red-flowering Paperbark, Orange Thorn, Pink-flowering Ironbark, Sticky Wattle, Weeping Leptospemum,Weeping Baeckea, Banksia serrata, Peppercorn Tree. I also have 40 advanced swamp cypress cuttings, 30 Nyssa cuttings and 90 Shimpaku cuttings.

treeman wrote:Here's a pot of seedlings of Acer palmatum ''Akaji Nishiki'' It has pinkish orange new leaves. You can see the genetic variability here. The yellow seedlings will have the coloured spring growth. The green ones won't. Another pot had almost all green seedlings!

021.JPG

Keep me updated Treeman! I love the Palmatum species, interesting cultivars, and all the variability along with it.

So does this relate to all trees or just specifically Acers?

Species breed true so any seed from a Black pine will grow more black pines and seed from Banksia serrata will grow more B. serrata.
It gets more complicated when gardeners have selected VARIETIES from a species. This is when we notice one individual is a bit different to the usual ones. Say you grow seed from Trident maple and notice that one of the seedlings has leaves with white stripes. You know that other people will want to grow that special trident maple so you call it Acer buergeranum 'Silver Fox'. Rather than growing seed from that tree, because most of those seedlings would look like ordinary ones and none will be exactly the same as your 'Silver Fox', you can 'clone' the plant using cuttings, layers or tissue culture. Every plant you make using these asexual methods will be an exact copy of the parent because it will have exactly the same genes so, in this case will have leaves with white stripes and can be called by the same name you give to your original plant any you will go on to sell heaps of these and become rich.
What about other species? You can grow seed of any apple tree and get apple trees but when you grow seed from a named variety of apple, say 'Granny Smith' you will not get 'Granny Smith' trees. You WILL get apple trees and may even get SOME that look a bit like the parent but even those ones will have some different characteristics even if you can't see them (maybe disease resistance or shelf life of fruit, etc) because they will all have unique combinations of genes, some from the mother, some from the father.

Though not quite the same, maybe a dog analogy might make sense. You have a Labrador called 'Woof'. You breed her with another Labrador and get Lab puppies. All of the pups will be Labs but none will be 'Woof'.
Unless you can get someone to clone 'Woof' there will never be another one exactly like her.
At least with dogs you can usually tell who the father is. With plants you can tell who the mother is but it is virtually impossible to work out who the father is.

I think that is as clear as mud now

Hi Shibui , no mate you explained it very well makes perfect sense. Glad you've set us straight on that as it will help us not to get ripped off on websites that try to sell cultivar seeds
regards
peterb