I'm not liken this Lichen!

[fae]

Thanks Sno

I think what I have on my plants is the bullish Georgia lichen.

Fiona

[Shane Martin]

Looks like Coral Spot. Or something similar. And has nothing to do with the lichen growing on the bark, other then the bark of the tree has been kept wet for a long time.

You have a fungus under the bark. The black dots are fruiting bodies.

Paul

Thanks everyone for their input so far. I tried to use a wire brush on the black dots and couldn't budge them.
Boy oh boy....spring has arrived and we're off to a great start....NOT!
Ok Paul,
I have found some info on this and problem and it appears there is no treatment other than pruning the affected branches.
This info below
Non-chemical control
Always prune in dry weather. When carrying out routine pruning, cut branches through the collar (ring of slight swelling found at the base of branches). Healing of wounds occurs most quickly here, compared to leaving stubs (snags) or cutting flush with the bough or trunk. If dieback occurs after pruning, remove dead material to avoid further infection.

Prune out infections promptly and cut back to healthy wood. Do not leave dead wood to moulder and generate spores in damp corners of the garden.

Chemical control
There are no specific fungicidal controls for this disease.

It also stated it attacks trees already under stress from other issues, and you were correct Jow, this Trident has the Phantom Trident leaf curl issue to contend with as well, which it is being treated at the moment with Triforine and Rogor.

My question is this... To prune out the infections, does it mean complete removal of all affected areas and branches, or would it be possible to slice the affected areas of bark from the branches and seal with wound seal paste.
This is the tree in question
First pic is Dec 2012 defoliation, and the second pic is just under 2 mths later in Jan 2013 back in full leaf. The tree is approx 28" tall.

TR-02_defoliated- 29-12-12.JPG

TR-02_25-12-12.jpg

TR-02_31-1-13.jpg

[63pmp]

Hi Shane,

That's a nice looking trident, I can see why you want to save it.

Peter tea has a timely segment on repairing rot in a trident on his blog.

I have only rarely encountered these types of rots in the past, but I have repaired old branch cuts that hadn't healed and rotted out.

The following is the process I would use.

Initially carve away a small section of bark in an affected area, just shallowly and carefully, looking for green cambium. Extend outwards, just lightly carving until you find healthy, green bark.

Place a plastic sheet over the pot and soil, make sure you don't get any contaminated wood or bark shavings on your pots and benches.

Sterilize your knife frequently in bleach. I think metho would not be strong enough to kill spores.

Continue removing dead bark till you have found all the green cambium margins surrounding the entire effected area. Once the contaminated area is delineated, remove all contaminated wood. I imagine affected wood would be dark in colour, but I don't know really. Carve down until you reach normal unaffected wood. Remove all the contaminated wood, even if it means removing some healthy bark, but try and minimize any dramatic undermining of healthy wood. You can use a Dremel and burr to make it quicker.

I have taken rotting tridents back to a penetrating hollow without affecting the health of a branch, so if only a thin piece of branch remains so be it, you
can always splint it later. The wound will heal over, so don't worry if there isn't much left, you just need to keep enough live cambium to maintain the branch.

Sterilize the excavation site with bleach. Perhaps undiluted lime sulphur may also work. Or bleach, and then lime sulfur. You have to be sure you have killed all the spores and fungi.

When exposed wood is dry, rebuild the branch with Knead-It. It's an epoxy car body filler, it sets quickly so work in small quantities, remaking the natural shape of the branch. Need-it will stick to the wood and the tree will heal over it without problems. Shape the knead-it as you would treat a large branch chop.
Spray the entire tree with lime sulfur or a copper based fungicide, and try and keep the trunk free of moisture.

You said you have the Phantom Trident disease. Stop fertilizing with N. Just give it K, Mg and Ca for a couple of months until it recovers. water carefully, make sure it has dried out before watering again. get a feel for the weight of the pot, or some other technique for judging when it is dry. Don't go to wilty dryness.

Good luck with it

Paul

[Tambrand]

Paul,

just a thank you, for information on a hole filler. I was testing the wood filler that dries chemically, but epoxy would probably be a better sealer.
Tambrand

[Shane Martin]

Hi Shane,

That's a nice looking trident, I can see why you want to save it.

Peter tea has a timely segment on repairing rot in a trident on his blog.

I have only rarely encountered these types of rots in the past, but I have repaired old branch cuts that hadn't healed and rotted out.

The following is the process I would use.

Initially carve away a small section of bark in an affected area, just shallowly and carefully, looking for green cambium. Extend outwards, just lightly carving until you find healthy, green bark.

Place a plastic sheet over the pot and soil, make sure you don't get any contaminated wood or bark shavings on your pots and benches.

Sterilize your knife frequently in bleach. I think metho would not be strong enough to kill spores.

Continue removing dead bark till you have found all the green cambium margins surrounding the entire effected area. Once the contaminated area is delineated, remove all contaminated wood. I imagine affected wood would be dark in colour, but I don't know really. Carve down until you reach normal unaffected wood. Remove all the contaminated wood, even if it means removing some healthy bark, but try and minimize any dramatic undermining of healthy wood. You can use a Dremel and burr to make it quicker.

I have taken rotting tridents back to a penetrating hollow without affecting the health of a branch, so if only a thin piece of branch remains so be it, you
can always splint it later. The wound will heal over, so don't worry if there isn't much left, you just need to keep enough live cambium to maintain the branch.

Sterilize the excavation site with bleach. Perhaps undiluted lime sulphur may also work. Or bleach, and then lime sulfur. You have to be sure you have killed all the spores and fungi.

When exposed wood is dry, rebuild the branch with Knead-It. It's an epoxy car body filler, it sets quickly so work in small quantities, remaking the natural shape of the branch. Need-it will stick to the wood and the tree will heal over it without problems. Shape the knead-it as you would treat a large branch chop.
Spray the entire tree with lime sulfur or a copper based fungicide, and try and keep the trunk free of moisture.

You said you have the Phantom Trident disease. Stop fertilizing with N. Just give it K, Mg and Ca for a couple of months until it recovers. water carefully, make sure it has dried out before watering again. get a feel for the weight of the pot, or some other technique for judging when it is dry. Don't go to wilty dryness.

Good luck with it

Paul

Hi Paul,
Sounds like I've got a lengthy process ahead..... it's on just about every branch on this tree
I listened to your earlier advice re overdosing on N, and have purchased the ingredients to make up my K,Mg and Ca treatments which I can start tomorrow.
Regarding my watering.... I am using a moisture meter now when I water, to get this part much more controlled. I can't believe how much I must have been overwatering, particularly throughout Winter.
I also closely inspected one of my big in ground tridents which has the same black pimples on the bark, but it has reached an age where the bark is naturally curling and lifting from the trunk and therefore taking the black pimples with it. The bark underneath is clean as a whistle.... would the issue still be active in the new bark?

[63pmp]

Hi Shane,

If the freshly exposed bark underneath the lifting/peeling bark is orange, then all good.

Careful examination of your original photos shows the most of the black nodules are not on the lichen, and that the bark is cracked on many of the branches you have photographed. More then likely these branches are dead already, scratch tests to check. Cracked bark as seen in your photo's is not a good sign.

Can you give us a wider photo of the tree so we can see how extensive the damage is?

Regards

Paul

[Shane Martin]

Hi Shane,

If the freshly exposed bark underneath the lifting/peeling bark is orange, then all good.

Careful examination of your original photos shows the most of the black nodules are not on the lichen, and that the bark is cracked on many of the branches you have photographed. More then likely these branches are dead already, scratch tests to check. Cracked bark as seen in your photo's is not a good sign.

Can you give us a wider photo of the tree so we can see how extensive the damage is?

Regards

Paul

Tomorrow I'll get to a couple of branches with the dremel and burr, and see what we're dealing with and i'll gets pics as well. Yes there are branches that have cracked bark Paul, and some look quite dead, but have new seasons shoots and buds still popping, so these ones could already be on the way out. Paul, when removing these black nodules, I am obviously going to hit unaffected bark, and expose green cambium in the process....(did a test area today on another tree with a very stiff wire brush) just how much green cambium can be exposed before it becomes a problem? Last question.... I started the no Nitrogen program today, and was wondering how often I needed to apply the sprinkling of Gypsum ? Thanks Paul

[63pmp]

Hi Shane,

Growth is always a positive sign, since we are dealing with a crown rot, it's possible that only portions of the branches have died, and a live vein remains to keep the branch viable, you want to preserve as much live cambium as possible. Though obviously if the branch has been girdled, shooting buds above the girdle may just be running on reserves and the whole branch will eventually die. Cut such a branch below the dead section, back into live wood, and sterilize your cutters each time you cut. A 10% bleach solution is recommended for this. I'm not sure about sterilizing cuts, but certainly seal the cut with putty to reduce the chance of re-infection. It may even be prudent to simply prune diseased branches and regrow them, saving the more laborious work for the trunk. Firstly we have to ascertain the amount of damage, if any,
before deciding on a course.

Try not to expose too much cambium. As it's possible to reinfect it. You really only need to find the border of the live and dead cambium. You may even be able to tell by just looking at the affected bark.

Here's a photo of a trunk chop gone wrong, you can see that dead bark is somewhat different to the live bark. You just need to find the border. Very light scrapping only is required as what you are uncovering is the bark cambium, not the wood cambium. If you have ever done a layer, you will notice the bark is about 1-2 mm thick, the wood cambium is below the bark. The bark cambium is only a hundredth of a mm below the surface. The bark cambium will heal quickly once exposed.

Trident dieback.JPG

I would lift loose cracked bark with a small pick rather than go straight in with a wire brush or Dremel. It's been a long time since I've dealt with this problem, and from memory, it doesn't really effect the wood that much, so burring may only need to be superficial, enough to remove infected surface wood. But you won't know until you get at it. You have plenty of time, as long as the wood and branches remain dry the disease is dormant, you don't have to do the entire tree in 20 minutes. Take your time and get your head around the issue. Identify what is dead or not, be mindful the tree is a living thing and take care not to do more harm.

The gypsum only needs to be applied every 3-4 weeks. As a guide a 200mm pot only needs one heaped teaspoon of gypsum. Just sprinkle evenly around the surface and water in. Calcium is slow to leach from pots (unlike potassium) It is slow to dissolve, and forms an insoluble salt with phosphorus, so be prepared for extra scale about your pots. This salt is dissolveable (is this an actual word?) by plant roots, and so they will feed continuously on calcium and phosphorus between fertilizer applications.

Look forward to the results of your examination.

Paul

[bonsaipotter]

Hi Shane,
I don't like lichen either and rigorously go after it. I find it introduces fungal attack on any cut and weakens fine branches. As someone else said those black spots are the fruiting bodies - the source of the spores that spread the lichen.
I have trialled lots of different things. Up until recently I would get the lichens really wet (and soft) and then toothbrush off with a dilute lime sulphur mix. But this was a bit tedious and left marks on pots and wanted an easier \ paint on solution. So the trials.
Lichen is a composite of fungus and algal type photosynthesiser. So it makes sense that either/both fungicide and algicide should work. Vinegar is a good algecide. Fungicides like Liquid Copper can be effective. I also read about using Iron Sulphate which is sold at the big B as a trace element. So I made up all sorts of combinations and painted them on with a small brush.
The liquid copper works but if you make it too strong will leave a colouration. The Iron Sulphate works with little or no colouration. With either make sure you add White Oil to the solution as this is a 'sticker' which keeps the active agent in place.
Do some tests but this is the answer - they work and you'll get them under control. Rigorously chase those fruiting bodies and make sure there aren't any in non bonsai trees and shrubs nearby too.
This is a good mid winter bonsai job when there aren't too many leaves in the way. A water spray bottle is good too as they show up much better wet and then just paint on a little of the solution that works best for you.No more lichen.
Cheers

[Shane Martin]

Hi Shane,

If the freshly exposed bark underneath the lifting/peeling bark is orange, then all good.

Careful examination of your original photos shows the most of the black nodules are not on the lichen, and that the bark is cracked on many of the branches you have photographed. More then likely these branches are dead already, scratch tests to check. Cracked bark as seen in your photo's is not a good sign.

Can you give us a wider photo of the tree so we can see how extensive the damage is?

Regards

Paul

Well Paul, I spent a few hours with a sharp knife and the dremel today and found some interesting things. The branches with the cracked bark were all alive, and a shallow scratch test also showed no infection in the wood below. Apart from a few spots near the very top of the tree, where I had to carve out some dark to black wood, all the nodules appeared to be surface only. I started with the dremel and burr on a few hard to get at branches in the apex area, and found it to aggressive, going through the cambium down to wood too quickly as can be seen in the photo.... so I switched to a scalpel blade and just tried scraping the nodules off which seems to have been the least damaging to the bark. All cuts were treated with 10% bleach solution as were the blades on a regular basis. In the other pics, you can see just how widespread this is.....safe to say there really isn't a primary or secondary branch that isn't affected with black nodules. Some are just on one side of the branch but others near the apex have it all the way round which made it difficult to know what to do. The branches in the pic are said branches, so I have only removed them from one side for now. This is definitely a job I wished I had addressed during winter, as it is a nightmare working in and around all these fresh new buds and shoots. I managed to work my way about a 1/3 the way down from the apex so far today....so much more to do Apologies for the phone pics.

photo-5.jpg

photo7.jpg

photo-3.jpg

[63pmp]

Hi Shane,

I'm glad that the branches are still alive and everything is superficial.

It would seem that lichen and its spores is the correct diagnosis.

I can't stress enough that its really important to do the least amount of damage to the bark as possible to avoid surface scarring.

Bonsaipotter has provided a good technique for treating lichen, I think its worth trying it.

Keep us informed with your progress.

Paul

[Shane Martin]

Getting the supplies together to give Bonsaipotter's suggestion a go..... sounds promising and a lot less damaging to the tree.
Thanks everyone for the input.

[thoglette]

Peter tea has a timely segment on repairing rot in a trident on his blog.

http://peterteabonsai.wordpress.com/201 ... ent-maple/


I've got some nasty sub-bark fungus/rot in a Japanese maple. It started at the top and has worked it's way down the tree, now close the main trunk!

I have cut back to green cambiam, sterilised with bleach and will now cover. Hope I can (literally) stop the rot

[Graeme]

In my backyard I have a persimon tree growing. The tree itself was growing a really good crop of Lichen, along with a bit of Mistletoe for good measure. Last year the poor old tree managed to grow 3 fruits and almost carked it, so off to the 'Experts" I went. No one could offer positive advice, with the most common being to cut the tree out, burn it and replace with a new one. Right, anyone know where old fasioned Persimon can be purchased? Anyhow during conversation with an old guy I know he suggested a mix of 50% vinager and water would do the trick. Said I should do it 5 or 6 times, a couple of weeks apart, so I went home and sprayed it 4 or 5 times, alright OK - 3 times, with the recommended mix. The Lichen is still on the tree, but I hose a bit more off each time I water the tree, so I figure it is dead Lichen now. The foliage is 10 times more than it had last year and I don't think there is a branch on the tree that doesn't have at least 2 or 3 fruit coming on.

Therefore, my guess is that vinager and water spray will kill Lichen. Maybe, because your tree is a bit smaller than my Persimon, you could give it a bit of a scrub with a toothbrush a few days after spraying it as well.

[Shane Martin]

Thanks Graeme,
I am testing another option at the moment and will post the results soon, however I have more than a few trees with lichen than initially thought, so I'm happy to give your potion a go as well. I'll let you know how I get on. One thing though.... would the vinegar be at all harmful to the foliage
Spraying would definitely be quicker than hand painting it on.