AusBonsai

Gareth wrote: Disadvantages of inorganic mixes

- needs a lot of watering to keep it moist (no soil to hold excess water)
- have to fertilize a lot, and often
- dry out quicker than a mix with organic in it
- very little microbiological breakdown of nutrient

Nice summary, but I disagree with the above statements.
-For me I have done a few moisture tests with Diatomite v Ray Nesci mix and both take similar times to dry out. The plant comparison tests bear this out too. Privet in different mixes will wilt from lack of water slower in diatomite.

-Have to fertilise as much as anything else. Some users of Organic mixes fertilise daily anyway so really does not matter what the growing medium is. I have never changed fert Regimen when I started using in-organics, and cannot see any difference in Health or goring rates because of it.
the way I think is that after a few months, Any nutrients will be leached out of ANY mix because we water so often. Virtually all Nutrients for the tree must come from what we add to the mix as Fertilizer.
How much is retained in the medium depends on the cation ratio of the components. As Damian mentions here, adding zeolite to pine bark will increase its cation ratio viewtopic.php?f=12&t=8602&p=94474&hilit ... tio#p94481 .

-Dry out Quicker? see above, but I disagree

- very little microbiological breakdown of nutrient? Huh, I reckon that has to be a benefit of in-organics, not a disadvantage

Ken

Organic fertilisers for organic mixes.

Inorganic fertilisers for inorganic mixes.

Organic mixes need biological bacteria to break down the nutrients, inorganic mixes do not have biological bacteria, when new, it needs time to build up by the time it has, you need to re pot.

Pup.

PS Luke all of my ingredients are inorganic.

if you water and fertilise enough you can grow in crushed brick, as Grant has shown in his soil breakdown.

1 part 7-10mm crushed rock---------1 part 5-7mm crushed rock--------1part coarse sand--------1part good quality potting mix(large particles sieved out)----1/2 part coconut ------and add some neutrog prior to potting-------its an open mix but also holds moisture in our hot summer here in south oz

kcpoole wrote:Hi Squiz

My mix, 2/3 Diatomite, 1/3 Zeolite
Diatomite for its water holding capacity ( better than anything else I have tried I reckon including Akadama, and Rays own mix)
Zeolite for its high Cation Ratio, ( ability to hold nutrients for the roots to access)

The reasons I use these is
- I cannot find anything better. Hold water longer in summer than Ray Nescis mix, and if does dry out a simple water will re-wet the soil. Rays or any other organic mix I have tried is really hard to rewet the soil particles after they dry out too much. This applies especially to the surface layer in the pot. If it dries out, the water tends to run off rather than soak in and be absorbed.
- With pure inorganic mix like I use, Drainage is excellent, No chance of roots staying too wet.
- no Curl grubs I have lost so many trees to these buggers, I will never go back to an organic mix.

I am going to try some Pumice whenever I can get of the other side of sydney and get some. It had a high porosity and apparently holds water well but probably optional for me.

I use Scoria as a layer in the bottom of my grow pots, to stop the smaller Diatomite / zeolite falling thru. The value it as water holding component I doubt as yes it has holes in it but they will be far too large to retain for too long and the rock component is too hard to absorb any moisture. Pumice wil do better than Scoria IMHO

one thing I will definitely disagree with you ins the longevity of Diatomite.
I have had several handfuls of it in a sealed Jar of water for over 5 years and it is still has firm as when it went in.
It is quite brittle, but does not crush between fingers. There is very little Compaction and "filling of air space".

Ken

Hi Ken,

No need to disagree as I said I am basing my findings from very little experience. I can however crush the diatomite between my fingers but its quite possible that plants cannot. I had not thought of diatomite being part of the water retention component of my mix so I will have to observe. Zeolite I have yet to see so I might grab a bag next time I am at Rays.

Cheers

Squizz

Damian Bee wrote:I am running some trials with inorganics, I am finding some issues with composted pine bark, mainly in the form of nitrogen lock down or some type of toxicity when I plant Azalea into it. The only issue is that Pine bark is soooooooooo cheap and inorganics can be pricey.

Has anyone else had issues with Pine lately?

Damien my only experience with pine is through the nurseries and we had to specialy request a more composted grade for our mixes as there was a lot of Nitrogen draw down. I do tend to persuade people to avoid it as a mulch through my landscape business as it causes the same issues. Some people just love the look though.

Pup,

would'nt the coco peat be cassed as an organic in your mix?

Can you or someone tell me more about this carnarvion river sand. Is it like a washed river sand from here or is it more fine? Washed river sand is about 3mm partical size with fines down to 1mm.

squizz

squizzy wrote:Hi Ken,
I can however crush the diatomite between my fingers but its quite possible that plants cannot.
Cheers

Squizz

What sort of Diatomite you using? where did you get it?

Just did a little test on a few lumps and there is no way I can Crush it with fingers. Best I can do is crack it when I squeeze along the edges of a thin piece.

I took some photos of trying to squash a lump between fingers and spatula.
I tried several sides and both finger and thumb, and neither could damage it. I was squeezing hard enought to be quite painful trying when I took these pics

Next time we meet we will have a diatomite crushing comp

Ken

Carnarvon river sand, not sand more of a gravel

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=10839&hilit=+carna ... 54#p114835

Hi Ken,

The diatomite I have is kleensorb from enfield produce. The same as yours I think. Maybe I have tougher fingers

Thanks for showing me the carnarvon river sand Craig. That was why I asked as it seemed weird that pup would put a fine sand into his mix.

I think this thread has helped me a great deal so far and I am sure there is much more to discuss on certain materials.I hope others have found it educational.

I am keen to try pumice but is it likely to be rounded and pebble like? Also keen to look at worm castings for the benefit of cation exchange but I am worried about how fine it would be in a mix.

For me what I am after is materials that are cost effective and effective in the purpose they are intended but above all this SUSTAINABLE. Akadama doesnt sound like it fits the bill for me.

Cheers

Squizz

kcpoole wrote:

Gareth wrote: Disadvantages of inorganic mixes

- needs a lot of watering to keep it moist (no soil to hold excess water)
- have to fertilize a lot, and often
- dry out quicker than a mix with organic in it
- very little microbiological breakdown of nutrient

Nice summary, but I disagree with the above statements.
-For me I have done a few moisture tests with Diatomite v Ray Nesci mix and both take similar times to dry out. The plant comparison tests bear this out too. Privet in different mixes will wilt from lack of water slower in diatomite.

-Have to fertilise as much as anything else. Some users of Organic mixes fertilise daily anyway so really does not matter what the growing medium is. I have never changed fert Regimen when I started using in-organics, and cannot see any difference in Health or goring rates because of it.
the way I think is that after a few months, Any nutrients will be leached out of ANY mix because we water so often. Virtually all Nutrients for the tree must come from what we add to the mix as Fertilizer.
How much is retained in the medium depends on the cation ratio of the components. As Damian mentions here, adding zeolite to pine bark will increase its cation ratio viewtopic.php?f=12&t=8602&p=94474&hilit ... tio#p94481 .

-Dry out Quicker? see above, but I disagree

- very little microbiological breakdown of nutrient? Huh, I reckon that has to be a benefit of in-organics, not a disadvantage

Ken

well i guess ill just shut up then...............

Pup wrote: PS Luke all of my ingredients are inorganic.

Um okay, not sure why your telling me this? I didn't comment on inorganic nor organic. Was this comment meant for someone else (squizzy maybe?) or am I missing something?

But now you mention it aren't coco peat & carnarvon sand both organic?

I have used various combinations of these ingredients including 100% diatomite. I feel there is no great need for pine nuggets, but I continue to use it as it makes the diatomite go further which is hard to come by in SA. The mix I made today was approx 80% diatomite, 10% zeolite 10% pine bark minis.

VARIOUS combinations? And in twelve months. Great

you know what, im going to speak my mind here for a sec. so please bear with me, as it is just an opinion but i think everyones is valid.

Nice summary, but I disagree with the above statements.
-For me I have done a few moisture tests with Diatomite v Ray Nesci mix and both take similar times to dry out. The plant comparison tests bear this out too. Privet in different mixes will wilt from lack of water slower in diatomite.

So straight away that is dismissive and pretty sarcastic bud, i was just putting in my opinion.

What you may have noticed, is that i was just trying to compile a bit of info from the thread, and if you have bothered to read my experience with my current mix, i said it doesnt dry out as quick.

Youll also notice that i said i use diatomite, dont take it personally im not using 70% or more in mix, its just my choice, nothing personal against you, sorry if i offended you or your mix.

-Have to fertilise as much as anything else. Some users of Organic mixes fertilise daily anyway so really does not matter what the growing medium is. I have never changed fert Regimen when I started using in-organics, and cannot see any difference in Health or goring rates because of it.

Thats fine if that is your experience, but again, IF YOU BOTHERED TO READ MY ECPERIENCE WITH MY MIX, you would notice that with the use of my organic component being worm castings, that i have not fertilized at all in the last 8 months and getting great growth, in winter, you havent changed fertilizer regimes, thats fine, i have, and im still getting great results from using a very nutrient rich organic componeent in my mix.

the way I think is that after a few months, Any nutrients will be leached out of ANY mix because we water so often. Virtually all Nutrients for the tree must come from what we add to the mix as Fertilizer.
How much is retained in the medium depends on the cation ratio of the components. As Damian mentions here, adding zeolite to pine bark will increase its cation ratio

you start off your sentence with, "the way i think"..... THINK, so your opinion, yes? i see how that invalidates my opinion.

I am watering with worm farm leechate, very rich in nutrient itself, i have posted a topic on this, and many forum members are using worm farm products with great results, i may in the future fetilize with a liquid fettilizer as i used to do, but i havent as yet, just pointing out my experiences.

I am well aware that the amount of nutrient retained in the mix is dependant on the CEC of the media.

-Dry out Quicker? see above, but I disagree

- very little microbiological breakdown of nutrient? Huh, I reckon that has to be a benefit of in-organics, not a disadvantage

Again i was saying that in my experience, and some others in this thread have also said, diatomite drys out a little quicker, adding an organic product sometimes keeps the mix a little mroe moist for a longer period, its ok if thats not your experience.

In nature, nutrient and organic material is broken down by bacteria and fungi so it is biologically available to the plants, this is why organic fertilizers, like fish emulsion, work really well, and in a mix with a lot of organic component, that promotes biological proliferation of bacteria and benefical fungi, any nutrient in the mix that is stored in the soil componenets (the organic) or the CEC related media like zeolite (which i also use) is broken down to further beenfit the tree, instead of being flushed out the bottom of the pot.

You reckon thats a benefit of inorganics, ok thats fine thats your opinion, but what information are you going to use to back that up? or do you simply think that this is the case and therefore my opinion does not matter?

For you information ken, my backround is commercial aquaculture and water remediation. I am VERY familar with biological breakdown by bacteria, having worked on, with and developed a few pro-biotic bacterial mixes myself, and researched the extensively.

I have also worked with compost tea, and how bioliogical remediated water can benefit crops and pastures when used for irrigation, not only by introducing the beneficial bacteria back to the soil, but also by supplying organic material back to the soil that has already been broken down by bacteria.

I have also worked pretty extensively with molecular sieve medias, you may know this as a few products, zeolite, diatomite, kaolin, just to name a few.

The zeolite you use i would assume is castle mountain zeolite, as this is a very popular zeolite we use in bonsai, i use it myself, i know the company very well, considering i used to sell it for aquaculture purposes, and i am very familar with not only its makeup, its mode of action, and its application, but could probably tell YOU alot about it.

So before you COMPLETELY dismiss someones opinion just because you dont agree with it, why dont you perhaps read their post, and see what you might be able to possibly learn from someone elses experience.

"One who is confident enough to ignore another's experience without knowing anything about what they are being ignorant towards, will learn little, and not expand their horizons" - Gareth, Ausbonsai 2012

RANT OVER!!

I don't see what you took offence at Gareth. Ken was voicing his view as you had. I think you've misread his tone.

Anyway I'd like to ask some q about the worm products.

In the worm castings issue, I find them very sticky and worry they'll clog the mix. Do you dry them out before using them or is there a preparation method?

the worms castings do seem sticky, but i have found, once mixed with other materials, such a diatomite and zeolite, that its not bad at all, my mixes are very free draining,, no clogging issues so far

When people call diatomite inorganic, they mean it is not made of carbon. It certainly doesn't mean it is sterile. Anybody that does any work with aquariums or other biological filters will tell you that the porosity of a substance such as diatomite makes it a great site for bacteria to break down complex organic molecules into simple molecules plants can use.

Basically, organic ferts work great in inorganic mixes.

And whether or not the substrate actually gets decomposed is irrelevant. A large pile of droppings on a concrete path could hardly be called sterile...

Joel