DIATOMITE ??

[Grant Bowie]

Discussing this the other day I was thinking about it Grant. The tests I have seen on this seem a little complicated to me.
I was thinking getting several pots of eaqual size for each medium.. Get 1L in a watering can for each pot, water the pot collect and measure all that drians out after say 1 hour and compare each one.
That should be a realistic test of what each medium is soaking up.

You would need to be vigilant with the sifting and grading of the mediums.
You should have a control of an empty pot as well

Yes, that was the next question. If we do a test we need to control it.

I have Akadama, crushed brick but no Diatomite. I am trying to source some now.

Grant

Grant are You coming up to Bonsai on the harbour? If so I can give you some if you want. Or Give to Leigh to bring back for you?

Hi,

I won't be making it to BBOH this year unfortunately; too much travelling, time off etc recently.

I would appreciate some Diatomite given to Leigh so I can do some trials; also where do you get it on a regular basis and is it in various grades?

Thanks,

grant

Let me know

Ken

[Grant Bowie]

The best process to measure the holding capacity of water, may be

Fill Sevaral (same type) containers / pots with dry soil ( I have read it shodu be baked in an oven for several hours to ensure it is dry).
Weigh each Sample
Completely Submerge the Pot in water for 10 mins or so to ensure fully wetted thru
Remove from water and allow to stand on a Grate for 10 mins until all water stops flowing
Weigh each Sample again and determine the weight of water held in the mix. You can then obtain the volume of water too

place all Samples in the same environment and allow to dry out at the same rate
Every hour, reweigh the samples to determine the rate at which the amples will dry out
Repeat several times and average the results

Note that this will not give any info re the ability for differeing plants to extract the free water from the various mixes, and I do not knw if woudl be different anyway?

Ken

All good thoughts so we will set up something once I have all the components,

Grant

[kcpoole]

Hi Grant

I get my Diatomite from "Enfield Produce" in Sydney. They stock it so by off them. They are the only vendor in Sydney that does stock and sell it as far as I know.

They might still have some fine Maidenwell left ( 0.5 - 2 mm), but you would have to search for it.

I get the Mt Sylvia "Kleensorb" that is 2mm and above. http://www.mtsylviadiatomite.com.au/diatomite-products/
Most of the bag seems to be 3-6mm with a few bits bigger and smaller. You could sift it into grades but do not bother as that size seems to suit my trees
I still have 1/2 a bag of the old Maidenwell Fine stuff which is 0.5 - 2mm which I use for tiny trees

I will give a bag of each to Leigh when he comes up for you

Ken

[Bretts]

Just did a test on zeolite and diatomite.
Used 100mm (500ml) nursery pots full of medium.
I graded the medium as best I could but the diatomite was slightly larger.
Zeolite dry weight 680g Diatomite dry weight 398g
Waterd each medium with 1L of water through a fine rose watering can and any that drained out was collected.
After 15 mins
Zeolite wet 755g (75g increase) Diatomite wet 524g (126g increase)
Shortly after I measured the collected run of from each pot and found that the Zeolite medium had absorbed 60ml the Diatomite had absorbed 120ml
This means the zeolite pot now holds about 12.5% water volume and the Diatomite holds about 24% water volume.

At these percentages it is hard to imagine that either mediums could be over watered when used well graded and at 100%. Within 15 minutes of watering both these mediums are in the optimum water to air ratio. Yet from these results the diatomite would be superior as it has more water storage and would stay in this optimum water air ratio longer!

Oh and two hours later the weight of the mediums has stayed constant showing that the drainage found it's balance of water tension to gravity within 15 mins of watering.

[Waltron]

Sorry if I missed it but does anyone know where I can get Kleensorb in Melbourne?
Thanks

[NBPCA]

Hi Grant

I get my Diatomite from "Enfield Produce" in Sydney. They stock it so by off them. They are the only vendor in Sydney that does stock and sell it as far as I know.

They might still have some fine Maidenwell left ( 0.5 - 2 mm), but you would have to search for it.

I get the Mt Sylvia "Kleensorb" that is 2mm and above. http://www.mtsylviadiatomite.com.au/diatomite-products/
Most of the bag seems to be 3-6mm with a few bits bigger and smaller. You could sift it into grades but do not bother as that size seems to suit my trees
I still have 1/2 a bag of the old Maidenwell Fine stuff which is 0.5 - 2mm which I use for tiny trees

I will give a bag of each to Leigh when he comes up for you

Ken

Much appreciated. The only bagged diatomite in Canberra is in huge, up to 25mm, chunks.

How much Cash should I send up with Leigh?

Grant

[NBPCA]

Just did a test on zeolite and diatomite.
Used 100mm (500ml) nursery pots full of medium.
I graded the medium as best I could but the diatomite was slightly larger.
Zeolite dry weight 680g Diatomite dry weight 398g
Waterd each medium with 1L of water through a fine rose watering can and any that drained out was collected.
After 15 mins
Zeolite wet 755g (75g increase) Diatomite wet 524g (126g increase)
Shortly after I measured the collected run of from each pot and found that the Zeolite medium had absorbed 60ml the Diatomite had absorbed 120ml
This means the zeolite pot now holds about 12.5% water volume and the Diatomite holds about 24% water volume.

At these percentages it is hard to imagine that either mediums could be over watered when used well graded and at 100%. Within 15 minutes of watering both these mediums are in the optimum water to air ratio. Yet from these results the diatomite would be superior as it has more water storage and would stay in this optimum water air ratio longer!

Oh and two hours later the weight of the mediums has stayed constant showing that the drainage found it's balance of water tension to gravity within 15 mins of watering.

Thanks Brett,

That would about what I expected. The Zeolite is a harder, less absorbant product and would hold onto water by surface tension.

Diatomite vs Attapalgite vs Crushed Brick vs Kanuma vs Akadama will be interesting. I got some Attapalgite yesterday.

Grant

[NBPCA]

So we now have 3 different products from 3 states.

Attapalgite from WA
Kleensorb from SA
Maidenwell from Qld

Any others?

Grant

[kcpoole]

Sorry if I missed it but does anyone know where I can get Kleensorb in Melbourne?
Thanks

Send them an email and see if they have any distributors there. Thats what I did to find Enfield Produce

http://www.mtsylviadiatomite.com.au/contact/

[Glenda]

Be very wary of a product called Septone Dry-up. It is diatomite, but has so much clay in it it is not usable the way it is. It is all I can get here, but have to spend 6-8 hours for each bag washing it through a sieve with a high pressure hose to get most of the clay out, and then end up with about 60% volume that I started with. I can't find anyone who stocks Maidenwell north of Bundaberg. If I could get enough local people to chip in to get a pallet I would, but so far I have not gotten enough interest from the local bonsai club.


Glenda

[Bretts]

Just weighed the mediums again and there was a slight drop from yesterday
10g drop on the zeolite and 6g drop on the diatomite. This could be from a little more drainage or evaporation or it could be from a little run off as I tilted the pots slightly moving them on and off the scales. It was very hard to move the zeolite without causing some run off not so with the diatomite.

Then I tilted the pots to encourage more drainage Zeolite lost another 27g (i think that is 27ml ?) . The diatomite would not drian any more That suggests that the diatomite has soaked up just under 120ml of water or about 23% the volume of the container and it is not sitting at the bottom of the pot but actually all soaked up by the diatomite. That means there is heaps of water and heaps of air in there. For something that doesn't beak down that is amazing stuff No wonder the trees like it.

It also suggests that the diatomite could have soaked up more water if it was sitting in water instead of watering from the top like I did here.

[Glenda]

[quote="Bretts"]..........Then I tilted the pots to encourage more drainage Zeolite lost another 27g (i think that is 27ml ?) . ............

Yes Bretts, 1 ml = 1 cubic cm = 1 gram of water

Glenda

[kcpoole]

Good Info Brett
I woud also recommed submerging both pots for 10 mins and see if they weigh any different than your original test.
I woud think that they will absorb a little more water than just top watering.

When I water mine by hand ( I do do some that you know) , I all ways water once and thenm come back a few minutes later qdn do again. Just to make sure as I think it take a while to soak "All the way thru"

Ken

[Grant Bowie]

Just weighed the mediums again and there was a slight drop from yesterday
10g drop on the zeolite and 6g drop on the diatomite. This could be from a little more drainage or evaporation or it could be from a little run off as I tilted the pots slightly moving them on and off the scales. It was very hard to move the zeolite without causing some run off not so with the diatomite.

Then I tilted the pots to encourage more drainage Zeolite lost another 27g (i think that is 27ml ?) . The diatomite would not drian any more That suggests that the diatomite has soaked up just under 120ml of water or about 23% the volume of the container and it is not sitting at the bottom of the pot but actually all soaked up by the diatomite. That means there is heaps of water and heaps of air in there. For something that doesn't beak down that is amazing stuff No wonder the trees like it.

It also suggests that the diatomite could have soaked up more water if it was sitting in water instead of watering from the top like I did here.

I have been also thinking that you would not get a perched water table if you have a drainage layer of water absorbent material such as Akadama/Diatomite etc.

Grant

[Bretts]

There has been alot of talk in the bonsai circles that using a larger gravel(or larger grade medium) at the bottom of the pot as the Japanese have recommended is counter productive to drainage.
I was very glad that another member posted this link up as it explains what they are talking about very well.
http://bonsaiwonders-art.blogspot.com/2 ... ayers.html

If you understand this correctly it is not really counter productive to drainage. What is actually happening is it moves the water table off the bottom of the pot. I think this could be very useful in certain situations and maybe the Japanese do know what they are doing when it comes to what we call a drainage layer. Is it so bad to make the water sit towards the top of the pot rather than on the bottom.

This is what I find so amusing about alot of the advice we receive. The reality of this advice is so different than what was going around.

I am not really sure what this means as far as Diatomite goes though Grant. Keeping the grade the same as the rest of the pot but a more absorbent medium is some what different. Would be very interesting with a glass pot so we could see what happens! Maybe the water would still sit at the bottom of the pot only to be soaked up by the diatomite? Maybe the water table would just move further up the pot as when we use a larger grade at the bottom?
Who's got a glass with holes in it?