how to obtain taper in trees-discussion

[Jamie]

i was thinking if moisture gets into the core wood of the tree and stays there?

[kcpoole]

thanks for your input craig, what you have mentioned is a bit of a worry in my eyes to for a formal upright. i would love to get some smooth taper from nebari to the top of the trunk, i think i am going to have to finde something with a decent sized trunk and chop back and then carve a jin at the top to imitate taper as such. and then grow out hopefully getting some nice smooth taper for the nebari.

if any one has some formal uprights i would love to see them, i reckon they are one of the harder styles to pull off convincingly.

jamie

Hi Jamie
Just catching up with old threads and spotted this one

I have heard that there is no shuch thing in Oz as a formal upright as they all have some faults that stuff it up
I am attempting to do on from with a Japanese Maple Cutting
I thought I have some newer photos, but the only one I can find atm is this one from 2005.

It now has 2 distinct layers of branches now, ( Left, right, Back) and then the Apex. I am now growing out the branches into something like their final Dimesions by clip and grow but will take a few years

The bas is now nearly 2 inches across and has even taper all the way to the top and is achieved by Allowning the brachine to add girth only. It has not been trunk chopped at all.

It is now about 17 inches high, and will alway be on the thin side of the 1-12 rule I think

Ken

pos I will have to ge tupdated photos and post

[Jamie]

thanks ken, i will be interested to see how you go with it and some updated pics

i am thinking of using a swampy for a dead straight promal upright and cut back to create a formal upright with some deadwood, dont know how successful i will be but will give it a crack

and i have also noticed the lack of formal uprights or quality formal uprights anyways.


jamie

[craigw60]

Hi Ken,
I think you have hit on the best way to develop a formal upright tree. I think sometimes people get a little obsessed with thick trunks and these are certainly not a requirement for this style, a long slow growing technique is the best way to go. Over time with your maple you will be able to achieve a beautiful nebari if the tree is grown slowly in a shallow pot.
Craig

[Jamie]

this is one thing i am interested in craig, you said you have developed trees in pots for most of there life, obviously slow but you have had them turn out well yes? i think its gotta have merit there as the japanese develop stuff like there shimpaku in pots there whole life and they are awesome.

would you have some pics of the trees you have grown in pots the whole time mate?


jamie

[craigw60]

Hi Jamie,
This radiata which is just re-shooting after a very hard prune has been in a bonsai pot for 25yrs and has never had any period of accelerated growth. One of the founding members of the vic society Jack Tripovitch told me to go to a pine plantation and dig up a sapling with needles all the way down the trunk, strip off all the needles except where you want branches and wait for the branches to develop. This tree has frustrated the hell out of me over the years with its slow development and I have nearly ditched it on numerous occasions but in the last few years the bark has started to crack and I am quite liking it. When I started this tree I was a very raw beginner and knowing what I do know I would have developed many more branches and gradually removed them over the years.
Craig

[Jamie]

understandable the frustrations it would of caused you mate, it is a nice tree, looks like a bigger one too. i like has it has come out

is there any scars on it or is this how it has develop over the years? no sacrifices or anything like that? the needles look quite small too for radiata, i have a few in my yard, huge trees, i have thought bout layering many times but every time i have had my knife out to start the ring back i see the massive nearly 1 foot long needles and am put off, i shouldnt be but oh well

jamie

[craigw60]

This tree has no scars of significance only the odd one where I have taken a branch or two out over the years. Its about 60cm high and has quite a thin trunk. I treat radiata a bit like junipers in that I pinch them all the time. The needle size will reduce a lot but it is very difficult to achieve the uniformity of needles like you can on a black. One of the great advantages of radiata is they are free and a serious weed in parts of Aus so you are doing the world a favour by digging them.

[kcpoole]

Nice tree Craig
Is the trunk in the pine a little bit bent? or jus the camera.
Did you start it a a formal in mind originally?

You mention that you shodu have left more branches on the tree, and I think I should have done the same with my maple.
It would have accelerated the groth a bit and given me a bit more choice about now but we all learn

The nebari on mine is quite nice as I grown in a bulb pan for the last 3 years I think

If i get a chance on the weekend I will update some photos for you all

Ken

[craigw60]

Ken,
My photography skills are zero. The trunk is quite straight. It is the closest I have to a formal tree. I sometimes marvel at the old palmatum maples that the japanese have been growing in pots for decades with those great slabs of nebari, bonsai today no 17 has a piece showing them using a plane under the tree to enhance and develop the root base.

[Jamie]

Is the trunk in the pine a little bit bent?

i seen that to but didnt want to say anything as the tree is nice even with that slight curve.

are you talking about a carpenters plane to flatten the bottom of the nebari craig? i can see how that would work it would be just like flat cutting an olive.


jamie

[craigw60]

yes a carpenters plane but just a little one which would fit in the palm of your hand. They use it to create that slab affect you sometimes see at the base on the old palmatums

[kcpoole]

I have take some new pics of my Trident and put them up for you pleaseure / Criticism
Took them this morning at 6:30 before I left for my aborted trip to canberra.

As said, Grown from a cutting ( it was a long whip from another tree i grew from seed) and has been in the bulp pan for most of its life. It has nice nebari happening around most of the tree but there is 1 long root that will need to be shortened at the next repot, and a Vacant section toward the from which I will fix with a root graft I think at the next repot.

It is about 1.5 inches across at the base and 22 inches in height. Currently a bit taller than ideal, but I hope as I build the branchin ofe rthe next few years it will end up more like 2 - 2.5 inches across which will give me a tree about 10-12/1 ratio.
As a Formal Upright, I think they look better on the taller side anyway

Enjoy
Ken

[Jamie]

nice KC its developing nicely. i think the only thing you need to look at is the way the pads are, some are angled more than others, i think for a formal upright that the branches should look horizontal all the way through the tree. but thats my opinion and i might be wrong in formal upright.

i think a few years it will be good


jamie

[craigw60]

Hi KC,
Jamie is correct the branches need to be consistent in their movement. Also I would wire that sacrifice branch down and let it run like mad to swell the lower trunk and create taper just be careful it doesn't develop a bump when removed. Your tree will be a nice formal in a few years.
Craig