AusBonsai Australian Native Bonsai Awards 2010 Result Announced

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Glenda
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Re: AusBonsai Australian Native Bonsai Awards 2010 Result Announ

Post by Glenda »

Pup wrote:.........Well here in Western Australia they do. Just drive up to Greenough in the Mid west and you will see River red Gums growing as semi cascades.
Not just one either.

When Grant is in the West next month I will show him a Banksia growing like a Juniper I pass it every morning........


Cheers Pup
Some photos of these would be great, Pup. You must have posted this while I was writing mine. I did not know this having never seen one.......

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Re: AusBonsai Australian Native Bonsai Awards 2010 Result Announ

Post by dayne »

im not anti native i have a few but some just arnt suited as well as others and i think in time their will be a high standard of natives but their are only a handfull of truly great ones out there as for northen hemisphere trees not thriving here i dont fully agree its just finding the ones that apeal to you that will i have well over half my collection juniper squamata that originate from tibet high country and into afganistan and i can repot all year round and thrive as do black pines from the coastal fringes of japan as do willow leaf figs from africa all are truely great bonsai material but i do have a couple of banksias on the way and some more natives to come but i will be choosing very hard because if the stocks not perfect its not worth it just because its a native so when i see a small melaluca with a boring trunk and a head of folliage that is all growing upwards it looks like its a young tree that got a fright not an old majestic tree that is the perfect example of that species i wont bother because if a pine where the same the japenese would throw it in the bin and thats where we need to set our standard if we want to use natives
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Re: AusBonsai Australian Native Bonsai Awards 2010 Result Announ

Post by jarryd »

i received a pm from Roger about the scoring after i asked him if he could send me my score sheet so i could see how my tree went as i was curious. and dont get me wrong i have no problem with the judging as it is the opinion of other influencial australian artists but i was curious as to the judging mainly on catagory 2 as their were some excellent entries. I feel the judging on cat 1 was pretty good pups trees definantly deserved the places they received. also i beleive deemons acacia was also an appropriate choice, i feel this tree expresses the feminine grace this weeping style should evoke, even if the tree hasnt been in training long it provides a convincing image which will just get better with time, however as this was an open category i feel some of the other trees entered may have been better suited

but the theme that it seemed Roger was saying the guidelines meant the trees entered must emulate an australian tree of the variety of stock used. this is where i disagree (and remember this is my personal opinion) a tree that may have fantastic atributes for bonsai may not always look nice in nature, it may be a small shrub or bush in reality yet if you styled it in this manner you would be wasting your time, who wants to see a bush in a pot. My opinion of great bonsai is emulating a majestic old tree in nature or creating a beautiful tree from my fantasy, the perfect tree, an old tree on a snowy cliff that has survived the elements for thousands of years, an old tree i might see in a haunted style old forrest, something that makes my imagination stir but the key point is it has to express the image of age, something that has surpased the toils and torment of time, a wise majesty. I also find alot of the native trees commended on this site are styled with japan these influence such as grants banksia's etc.

i think why i found the judging of category 2 strange is that the trees selected do emulate an austrlain style yet they look like very young trees you might commonly see around. which is not my idea of bonsai i see bonsai as striving to create something unique. jamies bonsai however does not exhibit australian styling which confuses me as to how it came 2nd. yet if it was up to me out of all the trees entered in catagory 2 i would select this tree of jamie's or one of shannons figs in training to place first as they were some of the few trees of substance submitted, sorry if i missed any others im just going off entries i remember.

so this is where i come to my query on this whole lets recreate the wheel with an australian style. it seems alot of the trees that express this aparent style look like imature trees of less then 100 years in age. if you look on the ANBG site and look at the natives used as bonsai you will find if you examine the trees which provide a superior image they exhibit elements of japanese styling principles, this is because the principles (not rules) have been adopted from visually pleasing aspects of trees in nature in combination with artistic principles, such as odd numbers, odd numbers are used to avoid symetry which provides a static image. has anyone actually looked at why groups have odd numbers of trees or why we use a loosly fitted scalene triangle for the basis of canopy construction. these are artistic principles which have been combined with favourable qualities of natural trees. however if you look at the other trees they just look like imature versions of trees in nature. our native trees do fall into the formal styles of japanese bonsai and if you look at what walter pall is calling broom and informal upright styles you can see these can be very vague outlines, however walter may not be the best example as he is an individual who seems to thrive from pushing buttons :lol:

there are three types of bonsai stylists,

those that use these principles as rules to a tee and end up with cookie cutter trees that have left right branching all branches on the outside of uniform curves etc.

those who acknowledge the principles as a guideline for desired atributes yet use an artistic flair of individual creativity to create individual bonsai that still exhibit desirable qualities

and those that choose to make their own path which is sometimes good and sometimes bad. walter pall is an example of a tangent that ended well, this is also true with the works of nick lenz. these are the success stories you hear of however if not done well stearing away from the norm ends badly think of the individuals at the club who will never take pointers to improve their trees, sometimes its good but other times it just results in a bunch of bad trees and twigs in pots

Another point i feel i should raise is the fact that it was never discussed that the trees entered should appear as the tree does in nature, it was only stated that we should use native materials, and as i stated earlier trees we use for bonsai due to the characteristics they exhibit such as bark small leaves etc may not always be able to be trained into a tree form if expected to emulate their natural growth habit. sure im not going to take a decidous tree and style it like a pine but i might take a maple and style it in a beautiful old oak style and maples will exhibit these qualities when they become aged and the use of an oak style just exagerates these qualities so it appears even more ancient and beautiful.

i am not trying to stir the pot here im just raising some points for further discussion, and express my opinion on the matter

kind regards jarryd
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Re: AusBonsai Australian Native Bonsai Awards 2010 Result Announ

Post by Bretts »

Edit; Your post is too long to read before I post this Jarryd ;)

Hi Dayne
I think it is important to remember that we are constantly learning about the native species. There are some truly amazing native bonsai out there without considering all that has had to be learnt in such a short time for using them in bonsai cultivation. I can imagine if I was given a JBP with no information on cultivation and repotting that it would be a long time before I worked all that out for myself. I doubt I would have anything great by the time my life was over.
We should be very proud of the work that our fellow Aussies are doing in working with our natives that paves the way for the rest of us.

I am still surprised how Peter Adams answered that question. I did not ask it but I was thinking the answer in terms of exotics as he was a foreigner. When he stated that we need to stop making excuses for our natives it struck me as I had felt this way but never put it into words. I was also very surprised that a foreigner got this 8-) Like I said I do not think a tree having very corky bark is an excuse to have negative taper. Bonsai is about illusion so corky bark or not if the illusion is broken it loses something.
I for one don't think our natives are that different to any other trees. Yes they have a few distinguishing features and shapes but when we look at only the most majestic ancient trees I see more similarities than differences. In fact I can see almost every style of Bonsai workable with our natives.
I see Gum trees with multi trunks that look very similar to Walters Famous Maple. Mighty gums with deadwood like a Juniper
There is always this suggestion that our natives are different. Yes they are in very interesting ways but what I think we need to remember is they are also very much like any other tree.
The Accacia at the Collection has me intrigued now and that is the start of appreciation. I am starting to consider how I would style this species and I have never done that before :D
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Re: AusBonsai Australian Native Bonsai Awards 2010 Result Announ

Post by ketutg »

CONGRATULATIONS! and well done to everyone involved. :D
I completely missed this comp as i had a lot going on in my life.

Will definitely make an entry next year
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Re: AusBonsai Australian Native Bonsai Awards 2010 Result Announ

Post by Pup »

The ability to choose the right stock apply the right techniques, using your ability is what makes good Bonsai.

Trees that grow as they do in nature is what we all wish to emulate, making it look old is the use of technique.

If we saw the trees of the Northern Hemisphere growing naturally here, as they do in there Native land then we would see three dimensional growth not pictures.

Native trees do grow in the contorted ways of the north have a look at the Inspiration threads. Big old Melaleucas do rival the maples from the North. So do Gum trees rival Junipers, considering they are just about the largest Myrtaceae Genus in the world with the Melaleucas being second.

I am sure if you could you would but then why!!.

Cheers Pup last word on this
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Re: AusBonsai Australian Native Bonsai Awards 2010 Result Announ

Post by Bretts »

I would say again I have no issue with the judging but for what it is worth these are my three favourites in no particular order.
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Re: AusBonsai Australian Native Bonsai Awards 2010 Result Announ

Post by anttal63 »

Jarryd; Like you work, that is a beautiful mind! It is obvious why your work is of such high standard. thanks for sharing. ;) :D 8-)
Regards Antonio:
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Re: AusBonsai Australian Native Bonsai Awards 2010 Result Announ

Post by Shannon »

Cheers, Jarryd
Well worded mate sometimes I struggle translating my ideas into the written word you don't seem to have any problems mate.
I liked your ideas on the the three types of bonsai stylists. Thanks for sharing
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Re: AusBonsai Australian Native Bonsai Awards 2010 Result Announ

Post by anttal63 »

Hey shannon dont stress; most, know your heart was in the right place. Valid points that needed to be aired out. ;) :D 8-)
Regards Antonio:
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Re: AusBonsai Australian Native Bonsai Awards 2010 Result Announ

Post by Shannon »

Cheers Ant. :D 8-)
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Re: AusBonsai Australian Native Bonsai Awards 2010 Result Announ

Post by Kunzea »

Hi jarryd
Great set of observations and comments. We are of one mind on many of your points.

A few comments in response:
* I don't believe that those who use Aust species must style them to emulate Aust trees. Sorry if you got this impression. In my evaluation of my reaction to the artisitic component, two trees of equal merit with one harkening back to a look that feels like it comes form the Aust bush versus one that doesn't, would rate a point or two higher in my rating, that's all.
* Cat 2 trees did look pretty young, but then they had to be less than 12 months in styling. Some were only 24 hours, and others only a few months. Perhaps if 'old' stock were more widely available, then the <12 criterion would have seen some more mature trees in early stages of styling.
* There is nothing wrong with traditional Japanese styling principles. At heart, they are very similar to artistic 'principles' of most other aesthetic schools: balance, texture, assymetry (often), colour, internal integrity or believability. To which for bonsai you might add respect for the tree and natural shape. For me, it is the use of a 'tick box' approach to whether any specific representation of these principles is OK, that probably dismays me with respect to the pracitce of 'art' in bonsai. The 'tick box' system harkens to what is often used at agricultural fairs for bread, needle work, dogs etc - craft of a high level, but very limited art.
* Of course you can use Aust species in 'Japanese styles', in African styles etc. For me, as with some Japanese masters who have visited, the Aust bush offers mind boggling opportunities for bonsai art. Do the hard yards and study, feel, live, breathe what the diversity of species, forms, environments have to offer - it's not being xenophobic - just thrilling at what can be done here. Similar opportunities exist in other parts of the world as wel. Unpredcedented opportunity. If the 'edge of art isn't your thihg - that is OK. Its rarified atmosphere is where I'm most uncomfortably comfortable(!).

* Fear only to not have the opportunity to make mistakes as you explore your own creativity.

* Minor point: fi styleing as a 'shrub' 'would be wasting your time', then I may have wasted mine. I have styled Kunzea ambigua as a group planting, modelled on the dense thickets of tea-trees that grow along some small streams - contorted stems, massed together... It has been worth the trial. Still some way to go to refine the image. Australia is blessed with some of the most diverse 'shrub' species and communties in the world. We have ignored them since 1777. A great place to go for new inspiration.

Keep up the questioning and probing. It never ends but is worth it to help mature as an artist.

Cheers
Roger
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Re: AusBonsai Australian Native Bonsai Awards 2010 Result Announ

Post by Will_IslandBonsai »

For someone who 'survives on the edge' and is 'uncomfortably comfortable', you've put together a few good points very nicely there Roger. Thankyou. I concur.
Cheers, Will
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Re: AusBonsai Australian Native Bonsai Awards 2010 Result Announ

Post by bonsaiworld »

I read Roger’s comments for April 8th and all I can say is “Roger, I am pleased you are one of the judges”. I totally agree with your comments. :D My club bought Robert Steven out from Indonesia in 2006 and again in 2007. In bonsai years the Indonesians haven’t been doing it as long as some countries but their trees, in my opinion are spectacular. Just one glance tells you it is a bonsai and yet they don’t usually follow any of the Japanese styling. Robert Steven said to us when he was here and forgive me for not getting it word for word but it went something like this:

Three things to consider when designing a bonsai:
1. Horticultural style: the tree should be styled to reflect/enhance how it grows in nature.
2. Location: The way it is presented in the pot should reflect the area and conditions in which it grows naturally
3. Appearance: It should be beautiful to look at.

He then said, “if the bonsai lacks the first two points but is beautiful to look at it is still a good bonsai, but if it lacks all three it is best planted to grow on in the garden!” :cry:

I personally think they are three good guidelines and are perhaps what we need to strive for when doing work with Australian natives. I see all those points reflected in Pup’s trees and in several other entries in the competition.

I did understand Shannon’s concern about what people viewing the competition from other countries might think about Cat 2 and 3. But they were clearly identified as “Beginners” (either the owner or the tree) and we all have to start somewhere.

Roger I for one would love to see the comments you wrote about my trees. Some I entered had been sadly neglected while others had been worked more recently, but the competition revived my interest and has made me get to work on my natives. Also I have been trying to get the Japanese influence out of the styling I did on my natives in early days and bring them back to conform to the points Robert Steven made.

Thank you for all the time you gave to this competition, as with all the judges it has been greatly appreciated. :D

Cheers Carole
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Re: AusBonsai Australian Native Bonsai Awards 2010 Result Announ

Post by craigw60 »

Having read all the above posts it has occured to me that to take a leaf out of the new inventors book and have a peoples choice award could be a good idea.
Craig
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